Talk:Dreadnought class
Size I thought the new Enterprise was the exact same size as the old one. 289 meters x2 would make it 578 meters. A little longer than an Excelsior and a little shorter than a Galaxy. :I don't think any length has been canonicaly revealed for the new Enterprise and official sources are inconsistent as to what it is. Speaking of which, should the article's background bit really be giving out a figure for this ship's length when it could really be anything. It was a rough comparison quickly drawn up in the movie and I doubt the crew had access to Section 31's specs. StalwartUK 21:30, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Spelling of Name I am seeing the spelling of this name as Dreadnought-class, which would imply there was a USS Dreadnought. However, I view the matter differently. I think that Starfleet is using a system that was seen briefly in Star Trek III, and has become accepted as canon. We have a genus of ships - the Starship Class - and several species of classes - Dreadnought, Heavy Cruiser, Destroyer, Scout, Transport/Tug. Each species is then divided further into sub-species, for example, Constitution-class Starship would belong to Heavy Cruiser Class. (Charts showing the breakdown is seen at Ex Astris Scientia, http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sftm.htm) So, in my opinion, the Vengeance is of the genus Starship, species Dreadnought, and sub-species unknown. Vengeance-type, perhaps?Throwback (talk) 03:18, May 27, 2013 (UTC) :Ex Astris Scientia is not a valid source. While you may be correct and Dreadnought-class may not be the specific shiptype, unless we have a canon source explicitly identifying the Vengeance as another class, we have to go with what was stated on-screen. - Mitchz95 (talk) 03:43, May 27, 2013 (UTC) I am not opposed to the name. I am opposed to how it's spelled. When it is stated Dreadnought-class, it is read as, This class is named after a ship named Dreadnought. I am saying that the spelling should be, Dreadnought Class. (I used Ex Astris Scientia, for this site has the cleanest view of the schematics seen in the movies. These schematics are considered canon.)Throwback (talk) 04:17, May 27, 2013 (UTC) ::As far as I know the way we write these class names "Galaxy-class" etc. is not how they are spelled in canon anywhere in the first place, instead if you look at the dedication plaques for example they are always just "Galaxy class" "Constitution class" "Starship class" I think the convention we use comes from Okuda and Star Trek Encyclopedia and has nothing to do with anything canon. --Pseudohuman (talk) 08:36, May 30, 2013 (UTC) Federation class I think the relationship between this class and the under "Apocrypha" is speculative at best. While that design might be a dreadnought, there's nothing to suggest that it's this design's prime universe counterpart. Unless, of course, we can find a note from a producer suggesting otherwise. - Mitchz95 (talk) 14:34, May 29, 2013 (UTC) :I have removed this section to spare everyone a headache. : Apocrypha :The prime universe counterpart of the was first depicted in the Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph. According to the hierarchy established in that book, the species was Starship Class, the genus was Dreadnought-class, and the family was Federation-class. :The design of the prime universe version was more reminiscent of the refit- . This version was equipped with a third nacelle, a secondary shuttle bay, and two additional phaser banks. This ship required a crew of 500. A ship of this class, the , was mentioned in the comm traffic heard at the beginning of . This movie would mark the first time that the term dreadnought was spoken of or referred to in the canon. :When we are arguing semantics, I think that is when a section should be removed. So, here it is.Throwback (talk) 15:25, May 29, 2013 (UTC) ::Simply replacing the loaded term "counterpart" with something that doesn't imply a conscious decision of the producers might have sufficed. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 15:32, May 29, 2013 (UTC) :::There is a Dreadnought article where information and comparisons of different dreadnoughts can be made, this is a page for this specific class called Drednought-class. --Pseudohuman (talk) 10:30, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :I don't understand how indents work, so I am forgoing them. A rule here, Pseudohuman, is that if you are removing a section, that you should put that section in the talk pages. I don't see the relevance of your apocrypha. Who cares about some comic book page? I don't. I don't see its relevance here.Throwback (talk) 10:54, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :::Sorry. When you didn't post the apocrypha section you removed here, I assumed you didn't care about that policy. But here goes. I removed the following information from the page because it should be covered in my opinion the Dreadnought page and not here since this is the page for ships of the "Dreadnought class" and the other is about "Dreadnoughts" in general: ::: Dreadnought Class in the Prime Universe :::According to the movie , in the prime universe, there were dreadnoughts in service by 2273. One of these ships, the , had received a message from the communications array Epsilon IX. :::The Entente was a name taken from the non-canonical Star Fleet Technical Manual, written by Franz Joseph, that was published in 1975. According to the hierarchy established in that book, the species was Starship-class, the genus was Dreadnought-class, and the family was . :::The Entente belonged to this class. In comparison to the , the ships of this class were longer, wider, and higher and possessed a larger . Additional features of a Federation-class ship included a third nacelle, a secondary shuttle bay, additional tractor beam emitters, and two additional phaser banks. A ship in this class had a crew compliment of 500 and had a maximum warp speed of w/f 10. An outlined image of a ship of this class appeared briefly in a graphic seen in the background of . According to this graphic, which was dated to the 2260s, the Federation ships were under construction. :::Apocrypha note is relevant because it is about a class of dreadnoughts that has the same class name. Where as "Federation class" is a class of dreadnoughts that has a different class name. But the main reason is that it is info that just is not relevant to this article. --Pseudohuman (talk) 11:18, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :I am speaking through the pain induced by my anxiety. (I suffer from severe anxiety.) If I am rude, I am sorry. My concern here is this - are we dealing with a family name or a species name? According to the hierarchy established in that book, the species name was ''Starship-class, the genus name was Dreadnought-class, and the family name was .'' This alternate reality Starfleet appears to be using the same hierarchy, using information from both the canon and the semi-canonical sources. Enterprise is of the family Constitution, genus Heavy Cruiser, and species Starship. So, in the case of the Vengeance, is this a ship belonging to the family of Dreadnought-class or a ship belonging to an unknown family in the Dreadnought-class genus. The example cited in the apocryphal is of a family named Dreadnought; however, even that is in dispute, for some sources, according to the background note, identify ships belonging to this family actually belonging to the family Ascension-class.Throwback (talk) 12:07, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :::I understand what you are doing, and I am familiar with all the information, so there is no need to explain. But you have to understand that Memory Alpha is not here to "connect dots" like that. We are here only to report that which is clearly stated in canon/bg/apocrypha without the speculative fan-interpretation of how it all fits together and explains everything. The reason why we don't connect dots like you are doing is because we understand that Star Trek is often leaving things intentionally vague, so there is room for some future episode or film to make things more complex. If something is "established" in a reference book, that doesn't mean it has any effect on how canon Star Trek should be interpreted as far as Memory Alpha is concerned. --Pseudohuman (talk) 13:33, May 30, 2013 (UTC) Mark IV Where was the Mark IV mentioned in the film? In the novelization Carol Marcus uses the term in a line "He's been developing a ship that has Mark IV capabilities" but in the film the line was replaced with "He's been developing a ship that has advanced warp capabilities" --Pseudohuman (talk) 13:43, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :I think it was when Kirk asked Khan about the Vengeance in sickbay. Khan said, "Dreadnought-class. Twice the size, three times the speed. Mark IV capabilities." Or something like that. Could be wrong, though. - Mitchz95 (talk) 15:07, May 30, 2013 (UTC) He says "Dreadnought class. Two times the size. Three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, its built solely for combat" --Pseudohuman (talk) 15:40, May 30, 2013 (UTC) :I stand corrected. - Mitchz95 (talk) 15:55, May 30, 2013 (UTC) I'm taking the Mark IV note out until someone points out where it was stated in the film. --Pseudohuman (talk) 05:41, May 31, 2013 (UTC) :I saw the movie again yesterday, and Mark IV was never stated (at least not out-loud). So keep it under apocrypha. - Mitchz95 (talk) 05:04, June 3, 2013 (UTC) Drones or Fighter Pods I was wondering might there be any reference that those torpedo firing automated kamikaze drones were called the Fighter Pods. ;) would seem logical if they tied into the merchandising. --Pseudohuman (talk) 16:41, June 3, 2013 (UTC) :Except that "Fighter Pods" is a line of toys... so... not quite the same. -- sulfur (talk) 17:16, June 3, 2013 (UTC) Saucer section hole? What's with the doughnut hole? With the intention of making the ship more menacing, sinister looking for the mysterious & secretive Section 31, I couldn't help wondering if The Pentagon was an inspiration for the design. Kinda fits with the G-Man conspiracy vibe goin' on. :I don't really see a "doughnut hole" in the ship; can you describe where it is and when in the film you saw it? 31dot (talk) 11:25, July 29, 2013 (UTC) ::Looks like a U-shape to me. After the crash at the end, Khan couldn't just slide from the broken bridge viewscreen down to the street on the hull, but had to to jump the 30 meter gap between the bridge and the primary hull. Only reason I can come up with based on the film is that it was designed that way by the film makers to demonstrate Khans superhuman abilities yet again. --Pseudohuman (talk) 19:12, July 29, 2013 (UTC)